Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women

Eighty-fifth session

Summary record of the 1976th meeting

Held at the Palais des Nations, Geneva, on Thursday, 11 May 2023, at 3 p.m.

Chair:Ms. Peláez Narváez

Contents

Consideration of reports submitted by States parties under article 18 of the Convention (continued)

Ninth periodic report of Germany (continued)

The meeting was called to order at 3 p.m.

Consideration of reports submitted by States parties under article 18 of the Convention (continued)

Ninth periodic report of Germany (continued) (CEDAW/C/DEU/9; CEDAW/C/DEU/QPR/9)

At the invitation of the Chair, the delegation of Germany joined the meeting.

The Chair, welcoming the delegation of Germany to the meeting, explained that additional members of the delegation would be participating via video link.

Articles 7–9

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that the guidelines for feminist foreign policy and the feminist development strategy were based on the principle of gender equality and the goal of achieving effective participation as the basic requirement for peace, stability and resilience. In both policy areas the aim was to provide rights, resources and representation for women, particularly marginalized and vulnerable women, throughout the world. The approach was gender transformative and aimed to remove unequal power structures, examine intersecting forms of discrimination and overcome colonial thinking. The Government wished to ensure that all those who were discriminated against on the basis of their gender identity, disability, age or other factors had their rights restored. The implementation of the policy and strategy involved multilateral and international cooperation. With regard to gender budgeting, the Government followed the guidelines of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in that area and sought to ensure that 85 per cent of resources were gender sensitive and a significant proportion were gender transformative by 2025.

A representative of Germany said that strengthening the rights, resources and representation of women and marginalized groups was at the core of the feminist approach. The feminist foreign policy was also focused inward, in recognition of the fact that efforts were still required to improve the representation of women in leadership positions in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Steps would be taken to address the fact that only 27 per cent of German missions abroad were led by women.

A representative of Germany said that the feminist development policy made explicit reference to the Convention. The third gender action plan of the Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development would be published at the end of 2023 and would establish concrete targets, measures and indicators to underpin the feminist development strategy. By 2025, the Ministry aimed to commit 93 per cent of new project funding to measures that contributed to, or specifically promoted, gender equality. The development policy was based on an intersectional approach that took account of the realities of groups that faced multiple discrimination, such as Indigenous women and female refugees. Increasingly, the gender data being collected was disaggregated to reflect the full diversity of women and marginalized groups. In seeking to strengthen the representation of women and marginalized groups, the aim was to achieve full meaningful participation for all in negotiations, project planning, conferences and consultations. In preparing the feminist development policy, the Ministry had conducted an extensive consultation process with actors from the global South and global North, including youth actors from the Generation Equality Forum. At the institutional level, the Ministry wished to lead by example and would be initiating a change and learning process that would include capacity-building, new training formats and ambitious internal gender equality goals.

A representative of Germany said that, as a member of the Bundestag herself, she agreed that the proportion of women in the parliament – at both the Land and federal levels – was too low. However, regrettably, not all members of the coalition Government shared that view. At the Land level, the government of Thuringia had referred specifically to the Convention and argued on the basis of criticisms made by the Committee when introducing its parity law. The Constitutional Court of Thuringia had, however, declared the law unconstitutional, although the decision had not been unanimous. Similarly, although the parity law in Brandenburg had also been overturned, some dissenting opinions had been expressed. In accordance with article 3 (2) of the Basic Law, the State must promote the actual implementation of equal rights for women and men and take steps to eliminate disadvantages that now existed. Many considered it necessary to introduce a federal law to achieve that objective, but unfortunately there was not broad support for the idea among the conservative members of the coalition Government. The Committee’s criticism of the situation was therefore helpful.

A representative of Germany said that the first stage of the gender equality check for future laws and important policies at the federal level introduced by the Ministry for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth involved an assessment of the gender impact of the project. The second stage involved awareness-raising and training in the relevant agencies. The third stage involved the provision of confidential and expert advice concerning the implementation of equality laws and policies.

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that, under the 2015 Act on the Equal Participation of Women and Men in Leadership Positions and the 2021 Act to supplement and amend the regulations on the equal participation of women and men in leadership positions in the private and public sectors, larger companies must appoint a minimum of 30 per cent women and 30 per cent men to their supervisory boards and must have at least one woman on their executive boards. Although progress remained to be made, the legislative quotas had yielded much more positive results than previous voluntary commitments by companies. In the companies subject to the quotas, the proportion of women on supervisory boards now stood at approximately 35 per cent, while the percentage on executive boards stood at 16 per cent.

At the ministerial level, women occupied 41 per cent of leadership roles as of June 2022, which marked a 2 per cent increase over 2021. In the federal administration as a whole, the proportion of women in leadership roles was 43 per cent. At the current rate, the goal of achieving parity by 2025 would not be met. Additional measures were thus being taken, including the creation of part-time employment opportunities for leadership positions. The ministries were working together to identify how best to draft job descriptions for leadership positions so as to ensure higher female representation. There was marked interest from the Länder in learning about the successful measures taken at the federal level to increase the representation of women.

Ms. Mikko said that she would welcome clarification of whether there were any plans to introduce a federal parity law before the next federal elections in 2025.

A representative of Germany said that a federal parity law would not be introduced because there was no consensus on the matter within the coalition Government.

Articles 10–14

Ms. Gbedemah said that, while the State party was to be commended on the advances made in relation to gender equality in education and the increased educational attainment of girls, attention should be paid to the reasons why boys were lagging behind in education. The Committee noted with satisfaction the implementation of certain recommendations made in its previous concluding observations (CEDAW/C/DEU/CO/7-8), including the recommendation to include a module on gender stereotypes in education within national teacher training programmes. She would be interested to hear more about the action taken in response to other related recommendations on education, such as ensuring the availability of materials that promoted diversity and the protection of all minority groups. It would also be useful to know how the implementation of the guidelines on gender-sensitive schooling was monitored, whether an impact assessment had been conducted and, if so, what the outcome had been. The delegation might also comment on how schools were dealing with sexual violence, including the idealization of such violence against girls and women in some extreme forms of music culture.

The various initiatives undertaken to increase the participation of girls in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) had doubled the share of women enrolled in those subjects. Nevertheless, the Committee was concerned that, according to the statistics provided in the State party report on the top 10 occupations in which women and men underwent training, traditional gender roles remained entrenched. For example, women continued to make up the bulk of trainees in hairdressing and office management, while men made up the vast majority of trainees in mechanical engineering. She would therefore appreciate information on how women were encouraged to train in traditionally male-dominated fields and vice versa. She would also welcome data on the participation of women and girls in sports activities.

Regarding efforts to combat vertical segregation in the education sector, it would be interesting to have more information on the disciplines covered by the programme for female professors, what other affirmative action was planned to increase the number of female professors and how disadvantaged groups were included in those programmes. She would like to know the number of asylum-seeking, refugee and migrant women and girls participating in integration programmes and language courses and whether those programmes were free of charge. Lastly, she would be interested to hear what lessons had been learned from the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) pandemic in the education sector and how they had been institutionalized.

Ms. Haidar said that Germany had the fourth-largest gender pay gap in Europe, fuelled by the highly gendered distribution of care work and the extreme underfunding of childcare facilities, which led to women often working in part-time jobs and not receiving promotions to leadership positions. She wished to know what measures the State party intended to take to support women’s participation in full-time labour and increase the number of places in childcare facilities and the number of skilled workers in those facilities. Given that current measures to provide incentives to men and women to take up non-traditional career paths seemed insufficient to bring about actual change, she wondered what further measures the State party was considering to achieve that objective. Was the State party considering the introduction of binding collective wage agreements for female-dominated labour sectors such as health care, with remuneration that reflected the true value of the work performed? In view of the planned introduction of at least two weeks of fully paid paternity leave, she wondered whether the State party would consider providing more financial incentives for a fairer division of the transferrable months of parental leave.

She wished to know what strategies the State party had developed to support the successful labour market integration of migrant and refugee women, which lagged far behind that of men, and whether they included participation in language courses, the provision of childcare and improved recognition of foreign educational and professional qualifications. The delegation might also indicate whether Germany intended to ratify the International Labour Organization (ILO) Migrant Workers (Supplementary Provisions) Convention, 1975 (No. 143), and the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families.

In recent years, the number of live-in care workers, who were usually female migrant workers from Central and Eastern Europe, had increased sharply. She wished to know what measures the State party intended to take to guarantee the labour protection rights of such workers, and in particular the rights to social security, health care and an adequate standard of living.

In view of the court ruling in February 2023 allowing female Muslim teachers to wear the headscarf in Berlin, she would like to know whether existing laws would be amended to guarantee that Muslim women who wore the headscarf had equal access to employment, decision-making positions and public office, including in the judiciary.

The fact that the 2017 law on the protection of prostitutes defined prostitution as an ordinary occupation had resulted in legal failures to protect women from criminal actions. The Committee was disturbed that cases of sexual assault and rape were not broughtbefore the criminal courts but before the labour courts and had been redefined as “work accidents”. She understood that the law was under review and would be interested to hear what measures would be taken to remedy the situation.

It would also be helpful to have more information on measures to address discrimination and sexual harassment in the workplace given that current statutory regulations did not provide sufficient protection. Lastly, she wished to know what steps would be taken to act upon the Committee’s previous recommendation to establish a State compensation scheme to provide redress by supplementing the pensions of women who had divorced in the former German Democratic Republic.

A representative of Germany said that the Länder actively supported measures to overcome gender stereotypes when it came to girls’ choice of studies and careers. Some Länder organized Future Days (Zukunftstage), during which girls were offered the opportunity to learn about STEM careers. In early 2023, the Federal Statistics Office had found that the percentage of women among first-year STEM students had increased from 30.8 per cent in 2001 to 34.5 per cent in 2021. In addition, girls had accounted for 52 per cent of first-year university students in 2021. The numbers indicated a positive trend in the study of STEM subjects, particularly in the areas of health-care technology and bioinformatics, in which women students were well represented. The Technical University of Aachen organized open days for girls to introduce them to potential educational pathways in STEM, and the University of Applied Sciences in Mülheim an der Ruhr offered women-only courses in mechanical engineering for the first four semesters.

A representative of Germany said that there were currently more female than male graduates from higher education and vocational training establishments. However, there was a far lower level of educational attainment among older women in the overall population. Considerable progress had been recorded in the area of STEM subjects, although men were still predominant, and progress was far slower in non-traditional non-academic fields.

Women’s participation in the labour market had increased significantly in recent decades but it was still lower than that of men. The participation of migrant women was particularly low. Moreover, the predominance of women in certain fields had an adverse influence on pay and career prospects. However, the gender pay gap had declined from 23 per cent in 2017 to 18 per cent in 2022.

A representative of Germany said that all asylum-seekers, regardless of their country of origin, had had access to integration and language classes since 31 December 2022. Participants in integration courses were required to pay €2.29 for each class. However, the classes were free of charge for persons with low incomes or other problems. Digitalization of language classes had been promoted during the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly for women with child-care duties. Special online courses were also available since 1 February 2023.

Ms. Gottstein said that child-care services were mandated at the federal level but were implemented by the Länder. A legal right to child-care services during the first year of a child’s life had existed for several years. The huge demand for such services had required the establishment by the Länder of many child-care facilities. A total of €4.5 billion had been allocated for the purpose in the federal budget and more than 750,000 additional child-care places had been created. The operating costs incurred by the Länder had totalled €6.5 billion in 2022.

It was predicted that there would be a shortage of 70,000 qualified workers for kindergartens by 2025. The federal Government, the Länder and municipal stakeholders had developed a strategy for supporting the development of skilled employees in the educational professions. The federal Government had allocated €4 billion for the implementation of the law to improve the quality of day care.

A representative of Germany said that €248 million would be allocated to a federal programme on behalf of migrant women called MY TURN, comprising more than 60 projects, by the end of 2028. The aim was to conduct empowerment training courses, language courses and other activities that would enable migrant women to find employment in the labour market.

The federal Government was seeking to accelerate the recognition of qualifications obtained in other countries, and 54 per cent of applications by women had hitherto been approved. Germany had ratified the ILO Migration for Employment Convention (Revised), 1949 (No. 97), and the Federal Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs complied with its guidelines in bilateral negotiations concerning the recruitment of foreign workers. As many other treaties concerning migrant workers had also been ratified, Germany had decided not to take action for the time being on the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families.

A representative of Germany said that the Prostitute Protection Act addressed dangerous phenomena related to prostitution such as violence and trafficking. Special protective measures were implemented on behalf of prostitutes in the 18–21 age group. There was a registration procedure and a requirement to provide advice and health-care information. The Länder were developing instructions on how the authorities should respond to indicators of violence. All relevant provisions of the Criminal Code were also applicable. The effectiveness of the Prostitute Protection Act would shortly be assessed.

A representative of Germany said that there was a €500 million fund for hardship cases on behalf of women who had been divorced under the law of the German Democratic Republic. The women could request a single payment of €250 on request, and the amount could be increased in the event of a hardship situation. It was estimated that between 180,000 and 190,000 women could benefit from the programme. As the programme had only existed for a few months, no reliable data were as yet available.

Ms. Haidar said that there were reportedly restrictions on access to the hardship fund and it was unclear whether all possible applicants were aware of its existence. She therefore urged the State party to lift all restrictions as soon as possible.

Ms. Tisheva noted that abortion after 12 weeks of pregnancy was considered a crime in the State party unless it was medically necessary to save the woman’s life or to prevent serious harm to her physical or mental health. The criminalization of abortion had a negative impact on the quality and availability of the services provided. The number of centres reporting on the provision of abortion care had decreased by 47 per cent between 2003 and 2021. In addition, the proportion of abortions performed by curettage was reportedly quite high, and Cytotec or Misoprostol was not widely available. Counselling was still mandatory for access to abortion during the first twelve weeks of pregnancy, and 40 per cent of clinics also imposed a three-day waiting period before providing abortions. As a result, some women sought abortion care outside the health-care system or even abroad, particularly in the Netherlands.

She wished to know whether there were concrete plans to decriminalize and remove all obstacles to abortion, primarily by revoking the discriminatory provisions of article 218 of the Criminal Code. She asked how the State party ensured that there were sufficient facilities for ensuring access to abortion in all regions and that abortion services were based on the guidelines of the World Health Organization, which should be incorporated into the country’s laws and policies. She also wished to hear about procedures for the monitoring and assessment of abortion services, including in public hospitals, and for the training of practitioners, including on innovative methods and choices for women.

She would be grateful for information about mechanisms for ensuring protection of women during childbirth and about complaint, redress and compensation procedures for violations of other reproductive rights. Contraceptive costs were covered under the statutory health insurance system for women under the age of 22 years and remained unaffordable for many women over that age. She asked whether there were plans to amend federal legislation to guarantee access to contraceptives, including adequate cost coverage. She also wished to know whether age-appropriate, inclusive and evidence-based education on sexual and reproductive health and rights was included in school curricula.

She asked how the State party ensured equal access for all women, including women with disabilities, refugees, undocumented women and other vulnerable groups, to health care and services. The Committee would welcome relevant data and the results of research. She wondered whether there was a timeline for repealing section 87 of the Residence Act and ensuring access to affordable and adequate health care for undocumented migrants.

She wished to know whether the State party would incorporate into its laws and policies safeguards and sanctions against harassment by anti-choice activists of persons seeking to realize their reproductive health rights. Lastly, she asked whether the State party would support the extension of the decision of 17 June 2022 under the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS) to cover the production and supply of COVID-19 diagnostics and therapeutics.

Ms. Bethel said that, according to the federal Government’s sixth report on poverty and wealth, pay and conditions in essential occupations usually performed by women, especially in health-care, educational and social work professions and the retail sector, frequently failed to adequately reflect their importance to society. She wished to know whether the State party had made efforts since to increase the value placed on such occupations and, if so, whether that had increased women’s social and economic empowerment. She asked whether the State party had established a policy and action plan to reflect the findings of the report in order to promote gender equality.

Referring to paragraph 219 of the State party’s report (CEDAW/C/DEU/9), she asked whether the increase in maintenance advances for single female parents had been an adequate response to their needs. She also wished to know what other gender-specific measures had been implemented to combat women’s poverty and social exclusion.

The Committee had been informed that most of the funds set aside by the Government to increase the number of childcare places for children under 3, referred to in paragraph 233 of the report, had been spent on the physical structure of childcare facilities and that insufficient financial resources had been allocated to the training of personnel. Furthermore, the provision of 20 hours of care service per week was reportedly insufficient to satisfy the care needs of working mothers and children. She would appreciate information on the measures taken to respond to those concerns.

She would be interested in hearing about the outcome of the study conducted under the “Concerted Action for the Care Workforce” initiative to identify innovative approaches to community care and its policy implications for the care of older persons and support for family caregivers. She asked whether family members were compensated for their care of older persons.

Referring to the comprehensive study undertaken in 2019 with a view to creating a scientific basis to support and promote women in the agricultural sector, she asked whether the study had been converted into federal policy and action aimed at advancing women’s economic empowerment in that sector.

The Committee had recommended in 2017 that the State party undertake impact assessments that took women’s human rights into account before they negotiated international trade and investment agreements. It would be useful to know what steps the State party had taken to monitor the impact of current trade-related initiatives in support of women’s economic empowerment and women’s rights. She asked whether the trade-related initiatives aimed to reduce gender inequality in the country. She also wished to know what steps had been taken to ensure that trade-related rules enhanced women’s economic empowerment and gender equality.

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that the parties in the current coalition Government had been unable to reach an agreement to remove pregnancy termination entirely from the ambit of the Criminal Code. They had therefore reached a compromise by agreeing to make the question of abortion part of the mandate of the recently created commission on reproductive self-determination and reproductive medicine. The Government had lifted the ban on abortion advertisements, and clinics and doctors could now freely inform the public of the services they offered in that regard. Medical practitioners who had been convicted under the previous legislation had been rehabilitated.

A representative of Germany said that abortion was currently a non-mandatory part of doctors’ training but, in the future, it would become a compulsory topic. Guidelines on pregnancy termination had been issued in December 2022. Abortion providers in Germany offered both medical and surgical terminations, although medically induced abortions could be performed only up to the end of the ninth week of pregnancy. German policy in that regard was fully aligned with regulations applicable throughout the European Union.

A representative of Germany said that doctors who carried out late-term abortions would, in many cases, do so only after the woman concerned had received counselling. Earlier medically induced abortions were preferable, although the necessary drugs were not always readily available and could only be used until a certain point in the pregnancy. For various reasons, not all doctors performed abortions and there were plans to draw up agreements between clinics and doctors who would provide the necessary follow-up care for the women in question.

A representative of Germany said that the coalition agreement provided for access to health care for undocumented persons.

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that the Government was currently drafting a bill which, while protecting freedom of expression, was intended to protect women against harassment when they approached abortion clinics.

A representative of Germany said that trade agreements were not negotiated at the national level but at the level of the European Union. The federal Government sought to incorporate human rights and gender-specific aspects into European Union trade policy. Germany supported the Joint Declaration on Trade and Women’s Economic Empowerment of the World Trade Organization. That issue was also addressed in the national action plan on business and human rights, which was currently being revised with a view to accommodating vulnerable and marginalized groups and to identifying gender-specific risks.

A representative of Germany said that measures had been taken to address the issue of poverty among women. Single mothers who were the only breadwinners were entitled to a monthly allowance of approximately €1,500, depending on the Land, in addition to other benefits while 2.2 million households benefited from housing support. The hourly minimum wage had been increased to €12. Moreover, in the face of rising inflation, low-income households received subsidies to help cover heating and electricity costs.

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that single parents whose partners failed to comply with their maintenance obligations were entitled to a monthly financial subsidy, which currently stood at €178 for children up to 5 years of age, €252 for children up to 11 and €338 for children up to 17. Around €2 billion was allocated for childcare each year, and the Länder could draw from that sum for infrastructure and construction projects as well as for training. With regard to the latter, the authorities were particularly concerned that the funds should be used, not only to train childcare providers, but also to train staff in the management of childcare facilities.

The Government was contemplating the possibility of providing financial recompense, in the form of a regular wage, to persons who acted as caregivers for family members. The project, however, would entail costs that ran into billions of euros and therefore required the enactment of specific legislation. The reply to the question concerning women in agriculture would be provided in writing.

Ms. Akia said that she wished to commend the State party for its efforts to address climate change, including the enactment of national climate protection legislation, the ratification of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and the pledge of climate-specific funding. She also welcomed the fact that the Government’s coalition agreement incorporated the Paris Agreement. However, the Committee remained concerned about the increased use of coal-fired power stations, despite the Government’s pledge to phase out coal by 2030. A stronger link needed to be forged between gender equality and foreign and domestic climate change policies, in order to meet the specific needs of women and girls, who were disproportionately affected by climate change.

She wished to know what measures Germany was taking to accelerate its reduction of greenhouse emissions and to curb its utilization of fossil fuels. How did the State party intend to implement gender-sensitive policies and financing to meet the unique needs of women and girls affected by climate change and climate-induced migration? In that connection, she would be interested to hear how the authorities were implementing the Gender Action Plan envisaged under the Framework Convention. The delegation might inform the Committee about any action the Government was taking to support feminist climate change organizations and activists and to incorporate their voices into efforts to address climate change.

While commending the Government for its open migration policy, the Committee was concerned by reports of increased anti-migrant and anti-Roma racism spurred on by right-wing extremists, including the police. In fact, migrants and Roma continued to face discrimination in all spheres, including education and access to social services. She wished to know what steps were being taken to combat such racism and would be particularly interested to hear about collaboration with the media on awareness-raising campaigns aimed at preventing intersecting forms of discrimination.

Articles 15 and 16

Ms. Hacker said that she wished to know what measures were taken to ensure that joint physical custody arrangements ordered by the courts were enforced in practice, so that children did not end up spending more time with the mother without adequate child support. She would welcome data on agreements and court rulings concerning custody and child support for the previous 10 years. How did the State party protect mothers against false allegations of parental alienation, especially after they reported domestic violence or child abuse or expressed a preference for sole custody?

In the light of reports that single mothers were among the poorest people in Germany, with a poverty rate in excess of 40 per cent, she would be interested to hear about any plans to study the economic consequences of divorce and separation, especially for single mothers and their children. In that connection, the Committee hoped to receive data on poverty rates among divorced mothers as compared to divorced fathers. She wished to know what steps the State took to protect surrogate mothers in cases where German citizens entered into surrogacy arrangements overseas.

A representative of Germany said that her Government was convinced that women and marginalized groups needed to be involved in climate change policies at the decision-making level if such policies were to be of effective benefit to them. Germany had thus pursued a consistent feminist foreign policy at negotiations on the Kunming-Montreal Global Biodiversity Framework and on the Climate Responses for Sustaining Peace, as well as at the twenty-seventh session of the Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. Equality was a guiding principle in all decisions the State took vis-à-vis financing for climate adaptation and biodiversity protection measures.

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that the federal commissioner appointed to combat discrimination against Sinti and Roma had represented their interests in a number of court proceedings. The Government ran a special programme aimed at fostering democracy, which provided support to civil society organizations that sought to combat all forms of discrimination, including against Sinti and Roma.

A representative of Germany said that parents who used violence against their children were excluded from any further decision-making role in their offspring’s life. Courts often ruled that parents guilty of domestic violence against their partners should likewise be excluded from playing a decision-making a role in raising their children. Child maintenance payments depended upon the economic capacity of the parent concerned. The parent who provided the greater amount of care received a greater child support subsidy. The commission on reproductive self-determination and reproductive medicine was currently considering the issue of egg donation and surrogacy.

Ms. Gottstein (Germany) said that the commission was also examining the issue of transnational surrogacy. Statistics concerning poverty rates among divorced mothers as compared to divorced fathers would be provided in writing, if available. She was not aware of any study into the economic consequences of divorce and separation but, inspired by the Committee, the Government might now undertake one. She wished to thank members for their questions, which helped the Government to understand the specific areas of focus that were of most relevance to the Committee. Similarly, the Committee’s praise was not only gratifying but helped the State to recognize when it was following the right path.

The Chair thanked the State for all the efforts it had made and for its constructive engagement with the Committee in the course of the interactive dialogue.

The meeting rose at 5 p.m.